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  #92681  
Old 12-01-2019, 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Hpalace View Post
Then why are so many brexiteers reluctant to have another referendum. Betrayal or anti-democratic they call it. Those that call for it are ‘traitors’. If they will win again what’s the problem? It’s just a vote on what type of brexit they want (or no brexit).
I suspect, like me most of them thought the establishment would never allow Brexit despite the vote. They see a second vote as a means to stop it after all there's lots of ways to define who does and doesn't vote that would change the outcome.
I have no doubt that if the voting criteria stays the same and given a reasonable campaigning time the outcome would be the same.

We're getting very close now 76days, I think we're all wondering how the establishment will manoeuvre to stop it.

What we know, May's deal will be voted down, Corbyn will not call for a confidence vote as he already knows he'll lose. So what next? An extension to kick it into the long grass and past the EU elections in May. Who knows.
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  #92682  
Old 12-01-2019, 11:23 AM
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If May loses by more than 50 votes, surely she will have to call an election? And in that case I think Parliament will take control and an extension will be negotiated.
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  #92683  
Old 12-01-2019, 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Skintagain View Post
I suspect, like me most of them thought the establishment would never allow Brexit despite the vote. They see a second vote as a means to stop it after all there's lots of ways to define who does and doesn't vote that would change the outcome.
I have no doubt that if the voting criteria stays the same and given a reasonable campaigning time the outcome would be the same.

We're getting very close now 76days, I think we're all wondering how the establishment will manoeuvre to stop it.

What we know, May's deal will be voted down, Corbyn will not call for a confidence vote as he already knows he'll lose. So what next? An extension to kick it into the long grass and past the EU elections in May. Who knows.
Sad isn’t it that they have to resort to words like ‘treason’, anti-democratic, revolution, riots, civil war etc simply because they are a frightened that a secondary democratic process will see their unicorn for what it is. A donkey with a dildo strapped to it’s head.
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  #92684  
Old 12-01-2019, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by El Aguila View Post
If May loses by more than 50 votes, surely she will have to call an election?
I don't think so. I honestly think she'll go away, get some new words on the deal and put it to Parliament again.

As the clock ticks on.
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  #92685  
Old 12-01-2019, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by GreatGonzo View Post
I would have concerns that there would be significant aggression should we not leave the EU from those who feel the result has been betrayed.
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  #92686  
Old 12-01-2019, 12:38 PM
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If Parliament can't agree on Brexit. Then what other option is there but to let the country decide with a 2nd referendum.

We can now have proper options to vote for.

No deal exit (Canadian terms)
May's deal
Remain

One of those has to reach over 50% if not the lowest drops out and a second vote is held between the remain 2.

Thus if it is first round

32% may's deal
20% hard brexit
48% remain

round 2 would be

May's deal v Remain.

I think it only fair brexiteers have a choice of Brexit's to vote for but brexit's that are known - not the blank canvas filled with fantasy that was presented at the last referendum.

The contentious area is who can vote.

I would definitely lower the voting age to 16 (it is their future that is most at stake after all) and I think we have to consider whether we let all Brits vote (wherever they are) and whether all permanent residents of the UK can vote as per EU elections.

I think a lot of Brits abroad may vote leave, particularly the retirees outside of Europe, however I imagine all continental Europeans resident in the UK would vote remain.
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  #92687  
Old 12-01-2019, 12:53 PM
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Theresa Mays deal will not get through parliament and shouldnt be in the first round.
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  #92688  
Old 12-01-2019, 12:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adrenalin john View Post
If Parliament can't agree on Brexit. Then what other option is there but to let the country decide with a 2nd referendum.

We can now have proper options to vote for.

No deal exit (Canadian terms)
May's deal
Remain

One of those has to reach over 50% if not the lowest drops out and a second vote is held between the remain 2.

Thus if it is first round

32% may's deal
20% hard brexit
48% remain

round 2 would be

May's deal v Remain.

I think it only fair brexiteers have a choice of Brexit's to vote for but brexit's that are known - not the blank canvas filled with fantasy that was presented at the last referendum.

The contentious area is who can vote.

I would definitely lower the voting age to 16 (it is their future that is most at stake after all) and I think we have to consider whether we let all Brits vote (wherever they are) and whether all permanent residents of the UK can vote as per EU elections.

I think a lot of Brits abroad may vote leave, particularly the retirees outside of Europe, however I imagine all continental Europeans resident in the UK would vote remain.
Kind of agree with this. The major problem with the Canada model no deal is still NI I.e. where do you put the border, whatever happens the EU will not allow a border within Ireland becaaue of the GFA (an internationally binding treaty supported by a referendum)..... That being the case many would choose a crash out no deal, however self harming this is (usually for others)
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  #92689  
Old 12-01-2019, 01:25 PM
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AJs post is good. Remain supporters could seal the deal by promising higher pay and lower rents. Add free care for the elderly too. The EU can promise a growth strategy and the ECB can promise to restart QE to avoid recession.
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  #92690  
Old 12-01-2019, 01:40 PM
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It would be good if that happened. It usually takes a war to convince the wealthy and privileged to let slip a little to the common good. In times when a climate disaster threatens and all sorts of crackpot theories like the “Singularity” and escaping to other planets are flying around, and beguiling the rich, it seems pretty optimistic to hope they will suddenly start thinking about other people.
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  #92691  
Old 12-01-2019, 02:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nth Kent Eagle View Post
AJs post is good. Remain supporters could seal the deal by promising higher pay and lower rents. Add free care for the elderly too. The EU can promise a growth strategy and the ECB can promise to restart QE to avoid recession.
Whilst a more socially conscious and equal political environment maybe attractive, many leave voters are blue collar tories and object to paying higher taxes (many want public services but don't want to pay for them), so align themselves with the rich tax dodging Tories (often aspirationally) to facilitate the UK becoming Singapore on sea with American food safety standards and private healthcare.
Whilst some of these blue collar tories have become disenfranchised as they have become the working poor, they are not prepared to admit it was the UK governments fault and would rather blame the the EU or immigrants for the unfairness, so have opted for a bit of anarchy bingo to shake up the system and who knows if they are the 0.1% whose numbers come up, cos it's worth the risk right

It will take liberal left leaning parties to get their act together to firstly stop brexit by any means and then to become electable to implement fairer policies. They can't do this by being in opposition no matter how well meaning their policies
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  #92692  
Old 12-01-2019, 02:01 PM
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After the referendum, Tories invented the holy grail of independent free trade deals, the economics of which is dubious at best. But also, as pointed out: they involve difficult & long negotiations; they mean surrendering some sovereignty; and the bigger side always win. So here is one example of USA demands: let our textile products in for free but we will still charge on your's (because the USA is historically protectionist while the EU is not, despite Brexiteer claims to the contrary, as is evident from their zero tariff deals for African countries under the Everything but Arms arrangements) -

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Old 12-01-2019, 02:05 PM
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After the referendum, Tories invented the holy grail of independent free trade deals, the economics of which is dubious at best. But also, as pointed out: they involve difficult & long negotiations; they mean surrendering some sovereignty; and the bigger side always win. So here is one example of USA demands: let our textile products in for free but we will still charge on your's (because the USA is historically protectionist while the EU is not, despite Brexiteer claims to the contrary, as is evident from their zero tariff deals for African countries under the Everything but Arms arrangements) -

And here's the big one for the UK given our reliance on services: the USA want others' barriers to services to be eliminated while they keep theirs. You could not get a clearer message that this is not about playing fair!

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  #92694  
Old 12-01-2019, 05:03 PM
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I have no doubt that ...
likewise many of the BBS don't doubt that you don't half spout uninformed bollox on here repeatedly.
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Old 13-01-2019, 09:33 AM
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If May loses by more than 50 votes, surely she will have to call an election? And in that case I think Parliament will take control and an extension will be negotiated.
She will lose by more than 50. Corbyn then calls a confidence vote but the Soubreyites, Moggites and DUP back the Tories so it fails. Corbyn then backs another referendum which then becomes irresistible. The EU agrees to an extension. Not sure about the outcome of the referendum though as we don't know the positions and policies the remain and Brexiteers would take. Have CBI bosses and big businesses recognised that a fairer society is needed and would the Brexiteers be more conciliatory?
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  #92696  
Old 13-01-2019, 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Skintagain View Post
after all there's lots of ways to define who does and doesn't vote that would change the outcome.
I have no doubt that if the voting criteria stays the same and given a reasonable campaigning time the outcome would be the same.
Who is not going to be able to vote who could vote last time?
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Old 13-01-2019, 11:02 AM
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Who is not going to be able to vote who could vote last time?
A swathe of Brexit voting pensioners
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Old 13-01-2019, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by adrenalin john View Post
……………….
The contentious area is who can vote.

I would definitely lower the voting age to 16 (it is their future that is most at stake after all) and I think we have to consider whether we let all Brits vote (wherever they are) and whether all permanent residents of the UK can vote as per EU elections.

I think a lot of Brits abroad may vote leave, particularly the retirees outside of Europe, however I imagine all continental Europeans resident in the UK would vote remain.

You're that desperate that you need children to vote.

Permanent residents? They should be British citizens at least otherwise they are just tourists.
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Old 13-01-2019, 11:17 AM
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I suspect, like me most of them thought the establishment would never allow Brexit despite the vote. They see a second vote as a means to stop it.
If the electorate still want it, they can still vote for it again. It's almost as those people are afraid that the electorate might see this cluster**** for what it is.

Although I do like the image of Farage, JRM, BoJo, Gove e.g al. as the horny-handed sons of toil fighting the brave fight against the Establishment.
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Old 13-01-2019, 11:24 AM
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I guess brexit must be great if Colin thinks so
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