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  #521  
Old Yesterday, 06:20 PM
cockneyrebel cockneyrebel is offline
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Originally Posted by stamford triumph View Post
Perhaps those who say Israel doesnít get disproportionate attention could explain why the boycott movement only targets Israel. There seem to be no other political, cultural and sporting boycotts of any other country.
Same was said about apartheid South Africa. Why boycott them? Why concentrate on them?

Two million people being imprisoned for over a decade doesnít have to many parallels.
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  #522  
Old Yesterday, 06:28 PM
cockneyrebel cockneyrebel is offline
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Originally Posted by legaleagle2 View Post
I hesitate to post on this (in anticipation of a furore of self-righteousness,allegations of whataboutery, being characterised as an Israeli apologist and even as being akin to a defender of Stalin again).

I think Israel's actions are in many cases utterly deplorable and deserve widespread opprobrium. I support a boycott of Israeli goods produced within the occupied territories.

I do think it an interesting question as to why so many here and in general are so outraged about Israel as to be motivated to post/speak out/march about it regularly but,for example, an equally dodgy comparator (European country, 'democracy' and NATO member) Turkey doesn't attract anything like the same constant level of expressed opprobrium.

I don't put that down to simply saying 'anti-semitism' but its an interesting question,if pure outrage about oppression by a 'democratic' country is the motivating factor.

The frequency of the application of the term 'apartheid' to Israel but not to other countries equally or in technical terms more deserving of it is also interesting,given the use of the term invokes a state of affairs above and beyond 'normal' oppression thus calling for an extraordinary near unique level of outrage..

The crux of the support for the anti-apartheid movement (in which I was active back in the day) was outrage at the idea of people being excluded from the electoral franchise because of race.

The term is frequently now applied to Israel (where there is a universal franchise within pre 1967 borders) but not, for example, often applied to Iran (which does not have a universal franchise) or to Malaysia (which enshrines racial inequality in its constitution and operates statutory racial discrimination in areas like educational access). Or to Myanmar..or to Turkey.

It is interesting,as an example, that a member of Labour's NEC can be fervently anti-zionist (fair enough) but seemingly not see a problem in endorsing the regime in Iran ,which has a non-universal franchise based on ethnicity and discriminates against gays and women...and Jews. This doesn't seem to cause paroxysms of outrage amongst their supporters over this seeming double standard.Why so?

I reiterate that I do not suggest there is some simplistic equation that says focusing on Israel equals anti-semitism,and I think there may be a number of reasons for what seems to me a disparity...and it is (would be ) good to be able to discuss it rationally without being depicted as near demonic.
You can discuss it but I would suggest another thread given this thread is about the atrocities being carried out by Israel. I would suggest it is derailing that issue by going on to what you are talking about.

An apartheid state, for me, is one that can only exist by oppressing the national rights of others. White rule in South Africa was like that. Early colonial settler states were (before genocide solved that issue), and today Israel fits the criteria.

Although I suspect the long term goal by Israel is to solve that by more and more ethnic cleansing.
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  #523  
Old Yesterday, 06:56 PM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
An apartheid state, for me, is one that can only exist by oppressing the national rights of others. .
Not too sure I agree with the definition. But t Iím not so sure either that even if we did agree on it, that the term would be at all helpful, since all it does is invite comparison and that is not - since the Israeli/Palestinian situation is so unique - something that is necessary or enlightening.
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  #524  
Old Yesterday, 07:05 PM
legaleagle2 legaleagle2 is offline
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
You can discuss it but I would suggest another thread given this thread is about the atrocities being carried out by Israel. I would suggest it is derailing that issue by going on to what you are talking about.

An apartheid state, for me, is one that can only exist by oppressing the national rights of others. White rule in South Africa was like that. Early colonial settler states were (before genocide solved that issue), and today Israel fits the criteria.

Although I suspect the long term goal by Israel is to solve that by more and more ethnic cleansing.
How very predictable.

This topic (which I didn't start and which others have felt legit enough to contribute to) starts from the proposition Israel is bad and doesn't seek to vary or reduce it. But your kneejerkism (jerkish at times being the word unfortunately) prevents you from even seeing that.

You really can't stand anything that strays off your narrow agenda of what is legitimate and permissable to debate.How very (non) progressive.

Rather than engage and actually deal with the topic,which is plainly one that makes you feel uncomfortable ,you close your mind to it and go into a huff of self-righteous indignation and accusatory guff. Says something interesting about you. If that is the future mainstream face of 'progressivism' in the UK, god help us

This thread,Mr (non) democrat is about Israel and all matters pertaining thereto.So,respectfully...f^^^ right off

ps. Look up what genocide actually is sometime before you pontificate and demean the term (some chance...) .

Last edited by legaleagle2; Yesterday at 07:11 PM.
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  #525  
Old Yesterday, 07:07 PM
cockneyrebel cockneyrebel is offline
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Originally Posted by Maz View Post
Not too sure I agree with the definition. But t Iím not so sure either that even if we did agree on it, that the term would be at all helpful, since all it does is invite comparison and that is not - since the Israeli/Palestinian situation is so unique - something that is necessary or enlightening.
I think itís helpful in that it highlights the plight and national oppression of the Palestinians.

Sadly Israel, in its current form, never allow the right of return or even a Palestinian state. Something that for decades hasnít come remotely close. Even the Oslo accords, which were never going to happen, were only offering the Palestinians a client status with no armed forces and other basic things that would make up a state.
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  #526  
Old Yesterday, 07:10 PM
cockneyrebel cockneyrebel is offline
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Originally Posted by legaleagle2 View Post
How very predictable.

This topic (which I didn't start and which others have felt legit enough to contribute to) starts from the proposition Israel is bad and doesn't seek to vary it. But your kneejerkism (jerkish at times being the word unfortunately) prevents you from even seeing that.

You really can't stand anything that strays off your narrow agenda of what is legitimate to debate.How very (non) progressive.

Rather than engage and actually deal with the topic,which is plainly one that makes you feel uncomfortable ,you close your mind to it and go into a huff of self-righteous indignation and accusatory guff.If that is the future mainstream face of 'progressivism' in the UK, god help us

This thread,Mr (non) democrat is about Israel and all matters pertaining thereto.So,respectfully...f^^^ right off

ps. Look up what genocide actually is sometime before you pontificate and demean the term (some chance...) .
And you aren’t predictable? I’m not uncomfortable with it at all, I’ve just suggested you and others start your own thread rather than derailing this one.

I haven’t accused Israel of genocide, but I very much do accuse the colonial settler states in the US, Australia, South America, Caribbean etc so maybe read properly and wind that neck in you like to jerk out

Thread is actually about “US Embassy move / Nakba day - More Palestinian massacred”. So **** right off but at you mate
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  #527  
Old Yesterday, 07:23 PM
legaleagle2 legaleagle2 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
And you aren’t predictable? I’m not uncomfortable with it at all, I’ve just suggested you and others start your own thread rather than derailing this one.

I haven’t accused Israel of genocide, but I very much do accuse the colonial settler states in the US, Australia, South America, Caribbean etc so maybe read properly and wind that neck in you like to jerk out

Thread is actually about “US Embassy move / Nakba day - More Palestinian massacred”. So **** right off but at you mate
Well done for ignoring the point yet again....its really pathetic and just gives added credence to certain analyses on the topic ,CR.

The thread has become (ever since I've been on here) a general thread re Israel.Don't like it;complain to the Mods.If I or anyone else posted anything away from your definition of what its about but which equated Israel as akin to the devil incarnate, you'd have no issue.....double standards yet again.Very democratic .

Your only point is that any debate which you don't agree with must be an attempt to undermine criticism of Israel.You are a veritable joker,CR. That was Uncle Joe's standard line near the end.Its about as convincing as the way Huddersfield players acted like they were mortally wounded when they were (and when they were not) fouled last week.

Alan Johnson last night on TV was spot on.The problem in Labour today is the rise of a 'if you don't agree with what I narrowly define as being ideologically correct, you are beyond the pale' mentality ,as opposed to the approach of old style Attlee democratic socialism which is healthy debate about legitimate topics,whether within the Party or on a social media thread.

The only derailing is (1) your desire to keep out any view that doesn't meet your narrow definition of acceptable discourse on the topic of Israel (doesn't mean you have to agree with the view) and (2) your evident lack of sufficient bottle to actually address the point...which is telling about you.

You are like a medieval bishop faced with a dissenting voice on a matter of theology who totally overreacts and seeks to excommunicate someone rather than debating. Sad but true.

So,perhaps either address the point or leave others to it..

Last edited by legaleagle2; Yesterday at 07:36 PM.
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  #528  
Old Yesterday, 07:26 PM
cockneyrebel cockneyrebel is offline
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Originally Posted by legaleagle2 View Post
Well done for ignoring the point yet again....its really pathetic and just gives added credence to certain analyses on the topic ,CR.

The thread has become (ever since I've been on here) a general thread re Israel.Don't like it;complain.If I or anyone else posted anything away from your definition of what its about but which equated Israel as akin to the devil, you'd have no issue.....double standards yet again.Very democratic

The only derailing is (1) your desire to keep out any view that doesn't meet your narrow definition of acceptable discourse on the topic of Israel and (2) Your evident lack of sufficient bottle to actually address the point...
which is telling about you.

So,perhaps either address the point or leave others to it..
Ignore what point? You always say you make points but seem to say little. If you mean the derailing stuff then no not on this thread.

This is a 27 page thread, there are other general israel threads, use the search function.

Especially as the Gaza massacres are continuing.

Apology accepted on the genocide point by the way.
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  #529  
Old Yesterday, 07:39 PM
legaleagle2 legaleagle2 is offline
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
Ignore what point? You always say you make points but seem to say little. If you mean the derailing stuff then no not on this thread.

This is a 27 page thread, there are other general israel threads, use the search function.

Especially as the Gaza massacres are continuing.

Apology accepted on the genocide point by the way.
Oh dear. Don't know about blood from a stone,it's like trying to get a goal out of Benteke.....

There's a debate starting at post 480 that a number of people have contributed to .My 'contribution' is at 520. If you genuinely can't work out what it's about ((except in your (incorrect) mind trying to undermine people criticising Israel)), I really can't help you.There was the same problem the other day about the Jordanian passports. You just went off on one,went off the deep end,accused me of trying to undermine criticism of Israel and even that I was like an apologist for Stalin and said I hadn't made any points.Eventually,you calmed down a bit,'got' my points and acknowledged you had no evidence to back up what you had been posting in the first place that I had responded to.. Jesus wept,CR.

Last edited by legaleagle2; Yesterday at 08:42 PM.
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  #530  
Old Yesterday, 08:17 PM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
I think itís helpful in that it highlights the plight and national oppression of the Palestinians.

Sadly Israel, in its current form, never allow the right of return or even a Palestinian state. Something that for decades hasnít come remotely close. Even the Oslo accords, which were never going to happen, were only offering the Palestinians a client status with no armed forces and other basic things that would make up a state.
So whats your view on the Israeli murdered by a Palestinian
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  #531  
Old Yesterday, 08:20 PM
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  #532  
Old Yesterday, 10:26 PM
legaleagle2 legaleagle2 is offline
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Originally Posted by Eaglesmad123 View Post
So whats your view on the Israeli murdered by a Palestinian
He only answers questions on this thread about Israeli massacres in Gaza,despite posting stuff all over it about other stuff too like Jerusalem.Go easy on the poor boy,he seems to be feeling the strain.
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  #533  
Old Yesterday, 10:55 PM
cockneyrebel cockneyrebel is offline
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Originally Posted by legaleagle2 View Post
He only answers questions on this thread about Israeli massacres in Gaza,despite posting stuff all over it about other stuff too like Jerusalem.Go easy on the poor boy,he seems to be feeling the strain.
Youíre seriously gonna align yourself with a right wing nutjob?
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  #534  
Old Yesterday, 10:59 PM
cockneyrebel cockneyrebel is offline
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A 15 year old shot dead in Gaza today. It goes on and on. No escape though as Gaza is a prison.
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  #535  
Old Yesterday, 11:10 PM
cockneyrebel cockneyrebel is offline
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Israeli construction of settlements has tripled in the second quarter of 2018 compared to the first quarter. During the second quarter of 2018, 794 settlement units were built, compared to 279 settlement units built in the first quarter of this year.
If this thread is looking at all issues, it’s clear that the West Bank ethnic cleansing is being stepped up and a hardening of the apartheid system there. The Israeli state as it is will never allow anything approaching a functioning Palestinian state.
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