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Old 19-11-2008, 07:51 PM
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Palace players in WW1

Bear with me please. Someone, who I seem to remember has a bit of an encyclyopedic knowledge of the club did some very interesting articles/posts on the above. May have been on here (searched but can't find it) or may have been in Palace Echo, ( Neil ?) or may have been in centenary season programme series. Can anyone help point me in the direction of these article please?
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Old 19-11-2008, 09:16 PM
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arussell wrote - believe it was two articles - about Palace who served in WW1; published in Palace Echo a few years ago.
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Old 19-11-2008, 09:20 PM
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There was a piece in the Indiependent week before last, apparantley Donald Bell - the only professionall footballer to be awarded the VC in WW1 - was an amateur with Palace for a while bfore going to Newcastle.
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Old 19-11-2008, 09:24 PM
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Andy Linighan served with the King's Own Yorkshire Light Infantry at Passchendale.
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Old 19-11-2008, 09:56 PM
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It was in the Echo. A two-parter from Alan if memory serves, with some follow-up letters from Mark Gardner.
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Old 19-11-2008, 10:12 PM
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It was in the Echo. A two-parter from Alan if memory serves, with some follow-up letters from Mark Gardner.
Would it be possible to get a copy/link?
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Old 19-11-2008, 10:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Eagle
Would it be possible to get a copy/link?
What he said.
Thanks to all, although, perhaps not Dom the Eagle. Perhaps there was an Andy Linhigan at Paschendale, although , more likely......whoosh.
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Old 20-11-2008, 12:37 AM
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Twas indeed written by me in two parts (a few years back now if I recall correctly) and then followed up a while after with a piece on Donald Bell, who also served briefly with Palace.

I've expanded the list/info on the players I had at the time since then, but this is the gist of (most of) what was published in the Echo at that time. I haven't updated or corrected any of the text (copyright me of course ).

--------------------------

During the two great world wars, life in football tried to go on pretty much
as it had before. At the outbreak of the first world war, the general consenus
among the population was that life would pretty much go on as it had before
and within six months things would be back to normal.

How wrong that proved to be.

Initially there was a reluctance to sign up for national service, and so in
there was a meeting held, attended by a number of football club chairman
including Palace's Sydney Bourne. At the end of the meeting, a proposal was
on the table to form the "footballer's batallion" which would be known as
well under it's proper name(s) (the 17th Middlesex, then later 23rd Middlesex regiments).

Straight away a number of players, urged on by their clubs and lead to believe that the war would be a short one, signed up for recruitment, including a handful from Palace.

There are at least 12 players who played for the Glaziers that lost their lives
during World War 1 (and I'm currently checking to see if that figure is higher), and over the course of this, and another article to follow I shall attempt to document who they were and what happened to them.

HARRY HANGER
Harry Hanger was born in Market Harborough, Leicestershire and was a left centre half who signed for Palace in May 1909. Prior to signing for Palace, Harry began playing his football at amateur local side Kettering, and from there moved just down the road to Northampton. A spell at Bradford City followed, before he made the switch to Palace. In all he played in 168 games for Palace, plus 10 in the FA cup and was a great servant to the club and a regular in Edmund Goodman's side with 8 goals to his credit over his six years. He was also Palace's captain for several seasons. Harry left Palace and enlisted at Northampton in 1915 and was sadly killed in action in Flanders in March 1918.

ARTHUR HOOPER
Born in Manchester and originally with Manchester Utd, Arthur joined Palace in 1914 and spent one season with us making a total of 18 league appearances, scoring 2 goals. He left Palace the following year in 1915 when he enlisted in Manchester with the Royal Lancaster regiment and died of wounds received on 4th April 1916 in Flanders.

JOSEPH BULCOCK
Born in Burnley in 1884, Joe Bulcock was a versatile defender who could operate anywhere along the backline and began his footballing career with the virtually unknown amateur outfit Bryn Central. Joe then moved to Bury before moving to Macclesfield and then Exeter City. Signing for Palace in 1909, Joe went on to turn out in almost 140 games for Palace both in the Southern league and the FA cup over the next five years, before moving on to SWansea Town. He was capped twice by England and died of war wounds on 20th April 1918 in France.

NORMAN WOOD
Born in Streatham in 1890, Norman Wood spent one season with Palace, appearing only once for the first team in an away fixture at West Ham in March 1909 at inside left. There is no definitive record of him turning out for
any other Southern or football league side prior to that, so it's possible that Palace plucked him from the ranks of local amateur football. After leaving, he joined Plymouth the following season and played 13 times for them during 1910/11 before moving back near to his former base in London by joining Palace's rivals, Croydon Common. With the Robins he played 38 times and scored a very reasonable 18 goals, before after only another single season he moved to Chelsea in 1912. He failed to appear for their first team and
then spent 1913/14 on Stockport County's books, and during that and part of the following season he played 58 matches, and scored a dozen times. Around this time he enlisted with the army in Chester, and rose to the rank of Sergeant in the Middlesex regiment (the famous footballer's batallion). At the age of 26, Norman was killed in action in France during July 1916.

ERNEST YORK
Ernie York was a versatile player who could feature either as a half back, or also at forward and was born in Moulton, Northamptonshire (not far from Harry Hanger's birthplace). Prior to signing for us, he was another Palace player who spent some time playing at Kettering, and he also won medals in cup and league competitions for amateur sides in the Northamptonshire area. Ernie scored 6 times for Palace in 54 southern league matches between 1912 and 1915, and also played 3 games for us in the FA cup. Ernie most likely
joined the army sometime in 1915, as there is no record of him playing football for any other side, and after enlisting in the Reading area he was killed in action two years later (in April 1917) whilst involved in a campaign in Salonika, Eastern Europe.

JOHN BOWLER
Born in Newcastle, Staffordshire, James was a back (defender in current terms), and first appeared at Palace in August 1914 when he played in a blues vs whites pre-season trial match for us (such games were advertised to attract players and run the rule over them in football's early days). Although he came out on the losing side, he was commended for his performance and must have impressed the Palace hierarchy as he was signed shortly after. Before he made his Palace first team debut though, he was involved in a more serious matter when he became one of the first two Palace players to sign up for national service and recruitment into the army for the first world war, in December 1914. This may have been prompted by the death of a family member in the army's service, as it looks like he may
have had an older brother who was killed in action in October 1914. James however wasn't called up football wise by Palace until February 1915, when he made his only first team appearance in a 4-1 home Southern league win against Reading. He made no further appearances for us or any other side after that, and it's likely that he was called into service in Europe by the army and possibly killed in action.

WILLIAM MIDDLETON
Born in 1892, along with John Bowler, Bill Middleton became the first Palace player to sign up for WW1 service, when he joined the army in December 1914 following the creation of the "footballers batallion". Hailing from Boldon Colliery in Tyne and Wear, and an outside right by trade, he was another player that rose from the ranks of amateur football. After starting off at Boldon and then Newcastle City, he played amateur football in the
Birmingham area and signed for Aston Villa, although he did not make an appearance for their first team and then went to Brighton in 1912, whom he played for 10 times. He came to Palace in late 1913 but didn't make his first team debut until March 1914. He played 21 times the following year in the Southern league, but was then absent from Palace while on duty in Europe for the next few years. After returning home safe, he then re-appeared in the first team during 1919-20, and then left Palace to have stints in Scotland with Ayr Utd and Aberdeen. In 1923 he moved back down South to Southend, and played 30 times for them before having a short stint in Scotland once more, this time at Dumbarton. He finished by playing
at Folkestone, where he settled at the end of his football career.

JAMES (JOHN) "GINGER" WILLIAMS
"Ginger" Williams is a bit of an oddity, in that between both Palace and Birmingham historians (two of the clubs he played for) there is some confusion over his first name, which is generally believed to be James (Palace records of 1913 list him as this). Born in North Wales in May 1884, and a forward or inside left, his interest in football started by playing at local league level in Wales. Early in 1904 he signed for Bury, scoring 7 goals in 15 games during his first season and in 1907 he moved on to Accrington Stanley.
A year later however, he was off to Birmingham City in mid-1908 just in time for the new season, but after 12 games with them he returned the following February to Accrington. From there he came to Palace in 1909 during the pre-season period for 1909-10, and spent five years with us clocking up 142 appearances in the Southern league, with 56 goals to his name. He was also capped twice by Wales whilst with the Glaziers, playing in ties against
Scotland and Ireland. After leaving us in February 1914 he moved on to Millwall, and was with them for around a year before enlisting in the 17th batalion of the Middlesex regiment. He was reported as missing presumed dead on 5th June 1916, and his name is commemorated on the Arras monument, near the French town of the same name.

(Many thanks to Phil Cooper for his help in researching names. The author would be pleased to hear from anyone who has any further information on Palace players during World War 1).

-------------------------

Not Palace related, but there were two excellent BBC4 programmes on footballer Walter Tull last week (the 1st black man to become an officer in the army - during WW1) in case anyone wants to watch out for repeats.

Walter played for Spurs, Northampton and Clapton Orient before WW1.
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Old 20-11-2008, 12:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arussell
--------------------------





Not Palace related, but there were two excellent BBC4 programmes on footballer Walter Tull last week (the 1st black man to become an officer in the army - during WW1) in case anyone wants to watch out for repeats.

Walter played for Spurs, Northampton and Clapton Orient before WW1.
Thanks, that was really informative. Brave men all. With regard to the Walter Tull programmes, although giving a clear picture of the very fine man Tull was,and how he deserved considerably better from his country than what he got,I felt that the programmes themselves were patronising, and potentially misleading. No surprise at all to find Garth Crooks involved after his desperate (and sadly successful) attempts to create controversy in the "Great Britain United" fiasco.
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Old 20-11-2008, 01:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dom the Eagle
Andy Linighan served with the King's Own Yorkshire Light Infantry at Passchendale.
Whilst Ian Wright of the Essex Light Horse scored a hat trick against the Germans on Christmas Day, with two assists by Paul Mcartney
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Old 09-11-2012, 12:36 AM
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I thought I'd give this thread a bump having had it pointed out to me in the CPFC2010 Questions thread where we were discussing November 11th and the 100th anniversary of the out break of WW1 in 2014. It seems from the above that at least 12 Palace players gave their lives in the Great War and it would be fitting I think to do something to remember them (as we remember all those who have made the ultimate sacrifice in conflicts) as we approach 2014. I'm sure Ian King will have some views on this - hopefully he will see this and become aware of the interest - but what I can say is that looking at the names above it would be quite feasible to visit at least some of the cemeteries and memorials where these guys are commemorated, around Ypres and on the Somme, and pay our respects, if anyone would be interested in such a trip?
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Old 09-11-2012, 01:30 PM
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You are going to be hard pressed to make a definitive list of CPFC players that died in WW1.

If you look here, the Bradford City guys are sure that Harry Hanger who we signed from them did not die in WW1. They say our records are wrong.

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Old 09-11-2012, 02:38 PM
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Do the club maybe have records of players registrations?
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Old 09-11-2012, 02:57 PM
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Old 09-11-2012, 03:05 PM
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Yeah I do
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Old 09-11-2012, 03:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bintang
You are going to be hard pressed to make a definitive list of CPFC players that died in WW1.

If you look here, the Bradford City guys are sure that Harry Hanger who we signed from them did not die in WW1. They say our records are wrong.

To view the link you have to Register or Login
They seem to be objecting on the basis that one record shows a Harry Hanger born in Market Harborough and enlisting in October 1914 with the Houehold Cavalry - whilst Palace's record shows a Harry Hanger born in Kettering and joining the Football Battalion in January 1915.

Two things that strike me about this, Market Harborough is very close to Kettering and the two locations share at least two roads that go through both places - there is a Kettering Road in Market Harborough and Rockingham Road also goes through both Kettering and Market Harborough.

It's also possible that Harry Hanger served in both miltary regiments, so a bit silly to strike his name off a list of War Dead without proper research.
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Old 09-11-2012, 03:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dom the Eagle
Andy Linighan served with the King's Own Yorkshire Light Infantry at Passchendale.
Surely Andy Linighan was in the Navy...turning circle of a battleship!
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Old 09-11-2012, 05:36 PM
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Originally Posted by CP Satellite
They seem to be objecting on the basis that one record shows a Harry Hanger born in Market Harborough and enlisting in October 1914 with the Houehold Cavalry - whilst Palace's record shows a Harry Hanger born in Kettering and joining the Football Battalion in January 1915.

Two things that strike me about this, Market Harborough is very close to Kettering and the two locations share at least two roads that go through both places - there is a Kettering Road in Market Harborough and Rockingham Road also goes through both Kettering and Market Harborough.

It's also possible that Harry Hanger served in both miltary regiments, so a bit silly to strike his name off a list of War Dead without proper research.
Well it is easy to get drawn to the wrong conclusions by just a name so I wouldn't be too hasty to dismiss Bradford's take on this. The fact that the brief biography above mentions he played six seasons for us, signing in 1909, does rather rule out enlistment in 1914 and obviously fits with our claim that he joined up in 1915. However it's rather confusing because Bradford refer to a Medal Index Card showing enlistment on 6/10/1914 (which is wrong, the date shown is entry to theatre of war) and fails to mention that the card also shows a date of death (23/3/1919) whilst the CWGC has same date but 1918!

Considering his regiment and date of entry to Conflict it rather implies he was regular serving before the outbreak of war and therefore not our man?

I think!

Any of you guys up on service numbers and their significance - the dead Harry's was 90.

Interesting stuff though!
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Old 09-11-2012, 07:09 PM
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Scroll down to Army Order 289 - December 1906:

"The lowest numbers currently on my line cavalry databases are 30 (Dragoon Guards on 9th January 1907), 15 (Hussars - 1st January 1907), and 104 (Lancers on 12th February 1907). Men already serving with the cavalry line regiments were not re-numbered and so one assumes that there must have been duplicate numbers in the three corps."

90 would mean he joined in 1907.

I'm not convinced Harry Hanger who played for us joined the Household Guards. He is described as a burly 5'9" centre half. You couldn't join the cavalry if you were under 5'10".

Question is: What happened to our Harry?
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Old 09-11-2012, 07:49 PM
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1901 census has a 13 year old Harold Hanger aged 13 born in Kettering.
So born 1888
Joined Palace in 1909 aged 21
If he survived war, in 1918 he would have been 30, so probably retired from football.
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