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  #9161  
Old 08-04-2021, 07:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Tomo View Post
Itís a real shame that youíve become so dull lately. I used to enjoy your posts and debates, but unfortunately you seem to have taken a holier than thou attitude, who no longer seems able to have a proper political debate, and want to blame every leader back to Blair for Labours misgivings but making Corbyn exempt.
I agree, none of the far left voters on this site , or anywhere , have grasped the fact that the labour party under Corbyn became an entirely different animal to the labour party people were comfortable and familiar with. They ignored them, plain and simple. Went for the metropolitan,student, and immigrant votes and completely closed their eyes and ears to the core of their support resulting in a spectacular annihilation , the worse battering since 1935 . There's nowhere to hide after that, the far left of the labour party did the damage , and were the architect's of their own downfall . They should really just fk off and start their own party, they despise starmer anyway, so why don't they ?. but they won't .
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  #9162  
Old 08-04-2021, 08:05 AM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
And yet the previous leader faced a leadership election after about a year for being about five points behind in the polls...
And? Things need to move forwards not keep looking backwards.
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  #9163  
Old 08-04-2021, 08:07 AM
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The point remains centrism has failed for nearly two decades both in and outside labour. Itís offered nothing other than blaming the left for its failure and impotence.
ignoring the failure of leftism
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  #9164  
Old 08-04-2021, 08:11 AM
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Let's hope Labour can get it's act together before the next election. They have some excellent politicians but they need to leading from the front. I'm a big fan of Yvette Cooper, there's Ed Milliband who has really raised his game, Andy Burnham and Sadiq Khan who have on the whole done good jobs and appealed to Labour voters and possibly bring David Milliband back into the fold. Of course there is Keir Starmer, an extremely competent if unexciting politician. I think a front bench team made up of those names alongside some up and coming names could offer a serious and effective opposition and appeal to the wider voting public. I also think they could offer an exciting manifesto slightly to the left of centre without scaring away too many from the centre right who are unhappy with Johnson's government. Unfortunately I don't see much chance of that happening at the moment.
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  #9165  
Old 08-04-2021, 08:11 AM
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Originally Posted by strolling bones View Post
I agree, none of the far left voters on this site , or anywhere , have grasped the fact that the labour party under Corbyn became an entirely different animal to the labour party people were comfortable and familiar with. They ignored them, plain and simple. Went for the metropolitan,student, and immigrant votes and completely closed their eyes and ears to the core of their support resulting in a spectacular annihilation , the worse battering since 1935 . There's nowhere to hide after that, the far left of the labour party did the damage , and were the architect's of their own downfall . They should really just fk off and start their own party, they despise starmer anyway, so why don't they ?. but they won't .
Agree, they won't because they need the historical platform of the Labour Party. Without that, they would be little more than a minority, wallowing in relative obscurity, like the SWP.
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  #9166  
Old 08-04-2021, 08:15 AM
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Originally Posted by strolling bones View Post
I agree, none of the far left voters on this site , or anywhere , have grasped the fact that the labour party under Corbyn became an entirely different animal to the labour party people were comfortable and familiar with. They ignored them, plain and simple. Went for the metropolitan,student, and immigrant votes and completely closed their eyes and ears to the core of their support resulting in a spectacular annihilation , the worse battering since 1935 . There's nowhere to hide after that, the far left of the labour party did the damage , and were the architect's of their own downfall . They should really just fk off and start their own party, they despise starmer anyway, so why don't they ?. but they won't .
FWIW I think Corbyn bought in some fantastic ideas, that woulld have made a huge difference to the country and made the world a better place.
There is no shame in a lot of what he wanted to do.

However, his leadership in the last 12 months was a horror show, not helped by the media.
However, it was very much a case of preaching to the converted by that point, and not addressing the concerns and wants that were faced in the Red Wall.

They weren't worried about free broadband. They were worried about Brexit and for a lot of those people Labours position just wasn't clear enough, and neither was Corbyn's.

I don't think the progress with voters that Labour had made previously should be ignored, but where credit needs to be given there, the last few months has to be acknowledged as a huge **** up.
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  #9167  
Old 08-04-2021, 08:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Tomo View Post
FWIW I think Corbyn bought in some fantastic ideas, that woulld have made a huge difference to the country and made the world a better place.
There is no shame in a lot of what he wanted to do.

However, his leadership in the last 12 months was a horror show, not helped by the media.
However, it was very much a case of preaching to the converted by that point, and not addressing the concerns and wants that were faced in the Red Wall.

They weren't worried about free broadband. They were worried about Brexit and for a lot of those people Labours position just wasn't clear enough, and neither was Corbyn's.

I don't think the progress with voters that Labour had made previously should be ignored, but where credit needs to be given there, the last few months has to be acknowledged as a huge **** up.
I've got lots of friends and family in the north, pretty much all labour, and I spent a lot of time talking about how they saw things. It was fairly obvious from the outset, that they saw what labour had become, as a completely different entity to the one they were used to . They resented being called racists for voting for brexit ( a very standard response by the left ) they were very angry at Corbyns terrorist connections, they also didn't take too kindly to being criticised for being proud of the country they live in by middle class student types, who had never broken sweat doing a days work in their life. The whole 9 yards of wokery is another issue that seemed to irk them . The staggering thing about all this was that the labour party canvassers were told all this and yet they still pushed the same ethos to them . They just didn't listen, probably because they didn't want to , and the rest is history, they voted Tory .
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  #9168  
Old 08-04-2021, 08:51 AM
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Lisa Nandy summed it up well when she said in constituencies like hers the young had to move to get the top jobs. Starmerite Labour should look to ensure that senior decision making public sector jobs are available to be done by anyone wherever they live. They should encourage and incentivise the private sector to do exactly the same. The UK can no longer afford to have all the top jobs concentrated in just a few cities as it restricts the available talent pool and unbalances the country and causes housing misery.
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  #9169  
Old 08-04-2021, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by strolling bones View Post
I've got lots of friends and family in the north, pretty much all labour, and I spent a lot of time talking about how they saw things. It was fairly obvious from the outset, that they saw what labour had become, as a completely different entity to the one they were used to . They resented being called racists for voting for brexit ( a very standard response by the left ) they were very angry at Corbyns terrorist connections, they also didn't take too kindly to being criticised for being proud of the country they live in by middle class student types, who had never broken sweat doing a days work in their life. The whole 9 yards of wokery is another issue that seemed to irk them . The staggering thing about all this was that the labour party canvassers were told all this and yet they still pushed the same ethos to them . They just didn't listen, probably because they didn't want to , and the rest is history, they voted Tory .
Spot on. But southern labour supporters will refuse to accept this. Even if it glaringly obvious.
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  #9170  
Old 08-04-2021, 09:45 AM
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I've got lots of friends and family in the north, pretty much all labour, and I spent a lot of time talking about how they saw things. It was fairly obvious from the outset, that they saw what labour had become, as a completely different entity to the one they were used to . They resented being called racists for voting for brexit ( a very standard response by the left ) they were very angry at Corbyns terrorist connections, they also didn't take too kindly to being criticised for being proud of the country they live in by middle class student types, who had never broken sweat doing a days work in their life. The whole 9 yards of wokery is another issue that seemed to irk them . The staggering thing about all this was that the labour party canvassers were told all this and yet they still pushed the same ethos to them . They just didn't listen, probably because they didn't want to , and the rest is history, they voted Tory .
Labour lost 11% of its 2017 leave voters. It lost 9% of its 2017 remain voters. That’s basically the same number.

This was not all about the red wall constituencies (unless those 9% had only come back to Labour in 2017 and were going to **** off anyway).
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  #9171  
Old 08-04-2021, 09:45 AM
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Spot on. But southern labour supporters will refuse to accept this. Even if it glaringly obvious.
I dont think the majority of Southern labour supporters have any idea at all what matters to northern labour supporters, the result of the election is evidence of that . Starmer has got a hell of a job getting those lost voters back.
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  #9172  
Old 08-04-2021, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Nth Kent Eagle View Post
Lisa Nandy summed it up well when she said in constituencies like hers the young had to move to get the top jobs. Starmerite Labour should look to ensure that senior decision making public sector jobs are available to be done by anyone wherever they live. They should encourage and incentivise the private sector to do exactly the same. The UK can no longer afford to have all the top jobs concentrated in just a few cities as it restricts the available talent pool and unbalances the country and causes housing misery.
At the same time the talent doesnít want to be in other places. See the ONS move to Newport as an example.
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  #9173  
Old 08-04-2021, 10:37 AM
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Labour lost 11% of its 2017 leave voters. It lost 9% of its 2017 remain voters. Thatís basically the same number.

This was not all about the red wall constituencies (unless those 9% had only come back to Labour in 2017 and were going to **** off anyway).
Figures don't make any of what I mentioned untrue , the simple fact is that , labour under Corbyn were so arrogant towards, and ignorant of, so many labour voters in the north that they lost them . They saw them as guaranteed surefire votes and didn't listen, let alone take notice of what they were hearing . Starmer hasn't really addressed this yet, so it's going to be interesting to see what he does and how he does it . He's got to somehow keep the balance by giving the left a voice, and yet convince voters his party isn't full to the brim with the lunatic fringe that labours voters voted against .
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  #9174  
Old 08-04-2021, 10:40 AM
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I've got lots of friends and family in the north, pretty much all labour, and I spent a lot of time talking about how they saw things. It was fairly obvious from the outset, that they saw what labour had become, as a completely different entity to the one they were used to . They resented being called racists for voting for brexit ( a very standard response by the left ) they were very angry at Corbyns terrorist connections, they also didn't take too kindly to being criticised for being proud of the country they live in by middle class student types, who had never broken sweat doing a days work in their life. The whole 9 yards of wokery is another issue that seemed to irk them . The staggering thing about all this was that the labour party canvassers were told all this and yet they still pushed the same ethos to them . They just didn't listen, probably because they didn't want to , and the rest is history, they voted Tory .
So they cut off their noses to spite their faces.
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Old 08-04-2021, 10:41 AM
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Figures don't make any of what I mentioned untrue , the simple fact is that , labour under Corbyn were so arrogant towards, and ignorant of, so many labour voters in the north that they lost them . They saw them as guaranteed surefire votes and didn't listen, let alone take notice of what they were hearing . Starmer hasn't really addressed this yet, so it's going to be interesting to see what he does and how he does it . He's got to somehow keep the balance by giving the left a voice, and yet convince voters his party isn't full to the brim with the lunatic fringe that labours voters voted against .
Pesky things, facts and figures.

I’m not disputing whether what you say is true or not, but simply that it does not reflect the whole picture. Because it doesn’t.

Even if Starmer does focus solely on the North, the other issue is that the suggestions that NKE has put forward is stuff the Tories have already started doing so how do you spin that? We’ll do what the Tories came up with first but vote for us because we’re not them, even though you voted for them because we weren’t listening and we only copying them now”. Doesn't sound like a winnjng plan to me.
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Old 08-04-2021, 11:04 AM
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Pesky things, facts and figures.

I’m not disputing whether what you say is true or not, but simply that it does not reflect the whole picture. Because it doesn’t.

Even if Starmer does focus solely on the North, the other issue is that the suggestions that NKE has put forward is stuff the Tories have already started doing so how do you spin that? We’ll do what the Tories came up with first but vote for us because we’re not them, even though you voted for them because we weren’t listening and we only copying them now”. Doesn't sound like a winnjng plan to me.
I haven't claimed it was the whole picture, I'm simply saying that for starmer to be a success he has to address the issues that matter to the voters that Corbyn lost . You don't win elections if you don't have a connection to the voters you need . As for your theory about copying the Tories, I'd say yes, if that's what it takes to win them back . If a policy or idea is popular with labour voters then I'm sure they would rather vote labour than Tory if the ideas are the same . Cutting your nose off to spite your face isnt a winning plan either, very corbynite in fact .. 87 seats to win back ? Why not
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Old 08-04-2021, 11:10 AM
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I haven't claimed it was the whole picture, I'm simply saying that for starmer to be a success he has to address the issues that matter to the voters that Corbyn lost . You don't win elections if you don't have a connection to the voters you need . As for your theory about copying the Tories, I'd say yes, if that's what it takes to win then back . If a policy or idea is popular with labour voters then I'm sure they would rather vote labour than Tory if the ideas are the same .
But they’re not Labour voters any more. Your argument is that they deserted Labour because Labour weren’t listening. So if they are now voting Tory and the Tories are doing what they wanted (i.e. listening) why would they vote Labour simply because Labour say they will listen now?

If Labour want to win they need a better narrative than that.
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Old 08-04-2021, 12:14 PM
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But theyíre not Labour voters any more. Your argument is that they deserted Labour because Labour werenít listening. So if they are now voting Tory and the Tories are doing what they wanted (i.e. listening) why would they vote Labour simply because Labour say they will listen now?

If Labour want to win they need a better narrative than that.
I don't think they do from the conversations I've had . It was essentially a protest vote at the lurch to the left and the deep dislike of Corbyn and the rabble he courted. They are still labour voters , just not Corbyns labour . Starmer has work To do, and if he is as smart as a lawyer should be, he will know exactly how to get them back . We are talking about working class people here, not idealistic Islington dwellers worried about the price of a latte .
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Old 08-04-2021, 12:20 PM
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Old 08-04-2021, 12:20 PM
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At the same time the talent doesnít want to be in other places. See the ONS move to Newport as an example.
The days of lock stock and barrel moves are no longer necessary. You can set up hubs around the country, give people the opportunity to work for you wherever they live, recruit actively in the regions and promote& train from within. You can do that without forcing existing employees to move families. I accept there will always be high end clusters that need to be located together in expensive nameplate locations.
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