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  #221  
Old 22-07-2021, 08:18 AM
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Originally Posted by spuddy View Post
The NHS workers have had the toughest 16 months of their lives & it will be tough for months to come. I realise most people take on the job of a nurse etc as for them it is their vocation. However when taking the job you know what your pay will be. It is their job which they chose to do and the reality sadly is that there is always a chance of a pandemic crisis happening & it has happened.

They very much deserve a pay rise & I think given the financial climate 3% is as good as could be done. I see the unions are up in arms about the pay rise as they wanted 15%!!!!!

Seriously 15% where on earth do they think the money is going to come from for that? To say the pay rise they are getting is paltry, shambolic & disgraceful is for me an incredibly bad choice of words. Many many people have lost their jobs. Even more have had their pay reduced to 80% & are still only being paid 80%. To come out & say that a 3% pay rise is disgraceful is an ill advised comment.

Yes the NHS staff deserve a pay rise & they have one, especially when millions of people will more than likely not get a pay rise for the foreseeable future. Do they deserve more than 3%? Yes I believe they do but they have less chance of getting it when they are so disgraced by 3% right now. Take 3% now say thank you & then go back to the table down the line to try to get a further increase.

By completely slagging off this pay rise itís makes negotiating a future pay rise so much more difficult as there will be a sense of bad feeling between the parties at the start of any future negotiations.
Isn't the 15% also reflective of the fact of the sub-inflation payrises over the last 10 years, particularly when factoring in the insane increases in the cost of housing?

These constant house price rises are causing very real structural issues with the UK economy. Finding nurses able to afford to work in city centre hospitals is going to become a real challenge.
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  #222  
Old 22-07-2021, 08:28 AM
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Originally Posted by sheepy View Post
Isn't the 15% also reflective of the fact of the sub-inflation payrises over the last 10 years, particularly when factoring in the insane increases in the cost of housing?

These constant house price rises are causing very real structural issues with the UK economy. Finding nurses able to afford to work in city centre hospitals is going to become a real challenge.
Those areas now though with so much wfh and virtual meetings are the areas where house price inflation is now weakest, especially London I thought so we could see some correction.

A nurse who qualified 5 years ago would have been on £21,909. 5 years later, without any promotion they will be on £31,533. That is a 44% pay rise over the past 5 years! That is BEFORE this additional 3%!

Last edited by GreatGonzo; 22-07-2021 at 08:30 AM.
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  #223  
Old 22-07-2021, 08:28 AM
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Originally Posted by sheepy View Post
Isn't the 15% also reflective of the fact of the sub-inflation payrises over the last 10 years, particularly when factoring in the insane increases in the cost of housing?

These constant house price rises are causing very real structural issues with the UK economy. Finding nurses able to afford to work in city centre hospitals is going to become a real challenge.
What we all need to remember is 3% of not very much is not very much. For me it is definitely part of long term privatisation plans
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  #224  
Old 22-07-2021, 08:28 AM
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Frontline NHS staff deserve a big pay rise. They need to look after the other real heroes of the pandemic - the care workers without the decent pensions and sickpay too.

The financial agony this winter is going to be horrific. Energy prices are the swing factor in family finances and the gas availability situation is the worst for a very long time. If there is a cold winter then vulnerable people will be in real trouble. This will especially affect those at home - pensioners, young families, the disabled and unemployed.
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  #225  
Old 22-07-2021, 08:30 AM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
It would. You’re wrong. The figures you gave above would mean an average over the year of 3%.

I didn’t say if it hits 3.5% next March stop making things up. I was saying if it was 3.5% as an average over the year, which is in the band of predictions.

RPI is higher as a prediction so will mean even more of a cut.
Mmm, you said "Unless all the media is incorrect (possible), then it is for 2021/22 and inflation is due to be 3.5%." Every commentary I have seen (and you may have seen others) talks about the annual inflation rate hitting 3.5% so it is reasonable to assume that you were talking about commonly referred to inflation rates. In fact, I have not seen any articles which talk about how costs will change (or have changed) over a discrete twelve month period as a whole. You obviously have...

As I illustrated earlier, if the CPIH cost of goods purchases for the year ended 31 March 2022 ends up being 3% higher than the cost of goods for the preceding twelve months, it would likely mean CPIH hitting 4% by next March. I haven't seen any such forecasts but that doesn't mean they don't exist,

Anyway, I'm done on this - you clearly don't believe (or want to believe) the maths.

Last edited by Philipw; 22-07-2021 at 08:37 AM.
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  #226  
Old 22-07-2021, 08:30 AM
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Last edited by Philipw; 22-07-2021 at 08:34 AM.
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  #227  
Old 22-07-2021, 08:34 AM
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Originally Posted by GreatGonzo View Post
The pay rise also doesn't affect General practice from what I can see so will open up a whole can of worms there.

I have also not seen whether NHS Trusts will be given more money to support this increase or will have to fund it from existing budgets.
I am sure that there will be some sort of funding form government to trusts. In any case, as what effectively happened in the year ended march 21, I strongly suspect that trusts will be reimbursed for costs actually spent in the year to march 22, i.e. deficits written off and surpluses grabbed but Treasury.
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  #228  
Old 22-07-2021, 08:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Lords Eagle View Post
What we all need to remember is 3% of not very much is not very much. For me it is definitely part of long term privatisation plans
How on earth did you come to the conclusion that this pay award is linked to future privatisation?
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  #229  
Old 22-07-2021, 08:42 AM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
Itís funny that billionaires increase wealth by 22%. But pay rises for nurses of 15% impossible.

We live in one warped society.
I do wonder how much your own wealth increased on the last year. As compared to your pay rise. My guess you have a pension fund that would show a considerable increase maybe even higher than 23% as I assume its invested in the Stock Market. If you look at April for instance the FtSE 250 has gone up 57% in the last year.
Sometime try and understand the difference because you keep compering two different things.
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  #230  
Old 22-07-2021, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Philipw View Post
How on earth did you come to the conclusion that this pay award is linked to future privatisation?
People will take the information and feed already settled opinions.

Saying nurses are getting a pay cut is as disingenuous as the £350m on the side of a bus.
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  #231  
Old 22-07-2021, 08:55 AM
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The other thing I'm not 100% convinced about is being compensated for all the hours extra they have done during covid. They get paid overtime at time and a half and even those that normally don't have had the overtime cap lifted so they will have earnt an awful lot during the period. They absolutely deserve that money, but the idea there has been no compensation again is not true.
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  #232  
Old 22-07-2021, 09:40 AM
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Originally Posted by spuddy View Post
NHS is public sector many of the billionaires are in the private sector. Two totally different world regarding finance available.

Correct employers donít give more pay if things are friendly but trust me if there is a friendlier atmosphere at the beginning of the negotiating it can make getting to the end game much quicker and smoother as there is more of a willingness from both sides to listen.
But society can create huge increases in wealth for billionaires but pay rises for nurses that are less than their increase in wealth are considered totally OTT. Isn't that very strange for a society?
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  #233  
Old 22-07-2021, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by ollie_porter View Post
Every post I see from you is just moaning about this country. So I thought I'd suggest an alternative, that's all!
So your suggestion if people don't like things in this country is that they should leave. That's really dodgy and usually used to just shut people up.

There are of course lots of things I like about this country, and indeed many other countries.
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  #234  
Old 22-07-2021, 09:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Philipw View Post
Mmm, you said "Unless all the media is incorrect (possible), then it is for 2021/22 and inflation is due to be 3.5%." Every commentary I have seen (and you may have seen others) talks about the annual inflation rate hitting 3.5% so it is reasonable to assume that you were talking about commonly referred to inflation rates. In fact, I have not seen any articles which talk about how costs will change (or have changed) over a discrete twelve month period as a whole. You obviously have...

As I illustrated earlier, if the CPIH cost of goods purchases for the year ended 31 March 2022 ends up being 3% higher than the cost of goods for the preceding twelve months, it would likely mean CPIH hitting 4% by next March. I haven't seen any such forecasts but that doesn't mean they don't exist,

Anyway, I'm done on this - you clearly don't believe (or want to believe) the maths.
I've already explained to you what I meant, so not sure why you are going over it. I'm talking about 3.5% for the year. Against a 3% pay increase. This isn't very hard to grasp.

It's an average of 3.5% across the year, against the average of 3%. So a pay cut. And using RPI an even bigger pay cut.

It's not "the maths" it's that you are looking at a totally different way of evaluating things than I am. Which you probably know but are being pedantic
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  #235  
Old 22-07-2021, 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by N Herts Eagle View Post
I do wonder how much your own wealth increased on the last year. As compared to your pay rise. My guess you have a pension fund that would show a considerable increase maybe even higher than 23% as I assume its invested in the Stock Market. If you look at April for instance the FtSE 250 has gone up 57% in the last year.
Sometime try and understand the difference because you keep compering two different things.
My pension is set against my wages, so as my wages went up a tiny amount, no it didn't get better for me.

I do know the different, but my point is that we see a society with huge increases in wealth for the richest, but apparently that wealth can't be used for anything other than making rich people richer.
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  #236  
Old 22-07-2021, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
I've already explained to you what I meant, so not sure why you are going over it. I'm talking about 3.5% for the year. Against a 3% pay increase. This isn't very hard to grasp.

It's an average of 3.5% across the year, against the average of 3%. So a pay cut. And using RPI an even bigger pay cut.

It's not "the maths" it's that you are looking at a totally different way of evaluating things than I am. Which you probably know but are being pedantic
I agree that, if you use RPI as the key inflation measure then there is a risk that to will be a real terms pay cut over 21-22 as a whole. However, very few if any economists believe RPI is the most accurate measure for the public at large.

Most economists now think CPIH is the most appropriate measure. For this to average 3.5% over 21-22 (and assuming it grows evenly from now on), it would mean CPIH hitting 5.3% by March 2022, more than double the current 2.4% rate. If that happens, NHS pay will be the least of our economic problems. And, putting aside what nurses as a workgroup deserve, I don't know of any organisation that is planning workforce pay on that basis that will happen.

Last edited by Philipw; 22-07-2021 at 10:51 AM.
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  #237  
Old 22-07-2021, 10:51 AM
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So your suggestion if people don't like things in this country is that they should leave. That's really dodgy and usually used to just shut people up.

There are of course lots of things I like about this country, and indeed many other countries.
No - just people that only say negative things about the country - not everyone. I was just trying to be helpful with my suggestions of places that adhere to your socialist utopia.

I'm glad to hear you do like things about this country though.
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  #238  
Old 22-07-2021, 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
My pension is set against my wages, so as my wages went up a tiny amount, no it didn't get better for me.

I do know the different, but my point is that we see a society with huge increases in wealth for the richest, but apparently that wealth can't be used for anything other than making rich people richer.
You do understand tucked away somewhere is a pension pot with your nane on it. The contributions by you and your employer to it added together. That pot is invested to earn more money usually in shares and property. Shares took a hit last year and then recovered as i said year on year in April the 250 was 57%up.
What i was pointing out us even if you cannot access it till you retire that pension pot forms part of your own wealth. I suggest that the pension pot it went up by 23% easily in the last year. Mind you it would of gine down the year before by a lot.
Comparing wealth figure increases to pay figure increases is achieving what ? they are two different things.
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Old 22-07-2021, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by GreatGonzo View Post
Those areas now though with so much wfh and virtual meetings are the areas where house price inflation is now weakest, especially London I thought so we could see some correction.

A nurse who qualified 5 years ago would have been on £21,909. 5 years later, without any promotion they will be on £31,533. That is a 44% pay rise over the past 5 years! That is BEFORE this additional 3%!
Is that true GG?
Most people I know don't earn any more than they did 5 years ago.
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  #240  
Old 22-07-2021, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by N Herts Eagle View Post
You do understand tucked away somewhere is a pension pot with your nane on it. The contributions by you and your employer to it added together. That pot is invested to earn more money usually in shares and property. Shares took a hit last year and then recovered as i said year on year in April the 250 was 57%up.
What i was pointing out us even if you cannot access it till you retire that pension pot forms part of your own wealth. I suggest that the pension pot it went up by 23% easily in the last year. Mind you it would of gine down the year before by a lot.
Comparing wealth figure increases to pay figure increases is achieving what ? they are two different things.
IIRC CR has a defined benefit pension, and most of those the liability has been increasing until the last few months. That assuming it is a funded pension rather than an unfunded one.

Obviously the market value of db schemes has gone through the roof for the policy holders and that’s a massive increase in wealth for DB pension holders, but people don’t like it when you point that out.
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